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 fantasy tournaments?

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PostSubject: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:14 pm

Ok so we need to start talking about what were going to be doing for our tournaments that involve fantasy. I'm thinking 2250 and 300 point games. I don't think we should restrict the items or army’s people should or could take. However we are more the able to implement bounces points to army’s that are not as current as others.

Ok I was thinking and this isn't law. No this will not be applied to the tournament on the 19th.

If a player is playing Ogre's, orcs and goblins, beast of chaos, tomb kings, or dogs of war. give them a 7 to 5 point bump when they play a newer army. If your playing Empire, Dwarfs, skaven, warriors, Bretonnia, or wood elves. You get a 5 point bump when playing a newer team. Lastly if you’re playing Lizards, Dark elves, or vampire counts. You get a 3 point bump when playing daemons.

What I’m thinking about is a way for army’s to still be competitive with out augmenting the rules or telling people this character is ok but not this one. So the list of army’s goes like this.

Level 1
Daemons

Level 2
Dark elves
Lizardman
Vampire counts

Level3
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
The Empire
High Elves
Skaven
Warriors of Chaos
Wood Elves

Level 4
Beast of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings


The amount of extra points you get depends on what level your army is at, and what level the army you’re playing is at. For instance a level 4 team playing a level 2 would get 6 extra points just for playing the game. A level 4 to level 1 gets 7 points. Right now it's just a thought but I think this type of point system will help people be willing to play in a tournament with there favorite army not just there best. Yes there is a difference.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:31 pm

You're proposing to adjust the final scores by this amount per game?

I can see how there'd be problems with just giving weak armies extra points if their weaknesses are only against certain other armies, but wouldn't that be easier? particularly if in fact it turns out that some armies are universally weak wouldn't extra list points be easier?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:50 pm

No there are army's that just can't fight against most of the armys this is just points the lower army's get for having to get paired up with a higher level one.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:07 pm

do Dasemons vs daemons suffer no penalties (for example)?

I think that's a decent way of solving the systemic problem, but does it effect how you score massacres etc?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:14 pm

thats hard to pull off. i played in one of these up at showcase. if you have a veteran player with a lower tear army playing a new kid with daemons the vet auto gets extra then most likely will crush him on top of it so he gets bonus points while others slug it out in the middle. i know because i did it with my greenskins and won. you would have to look at each list and judge and that leads to arguments with players which happened in said tourny. i've played as/against some ignorant lists from lower armies which can hold up very well
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:05 am

If level 1 plays level 1 no one gets extra points only when you play up. As for inexperienced daemon players or for that matter dark elves vamps or lizards. At the bunker you’re not going to run into any of them. The people bringing those army’s know what there doing and how to play. I'm just looking at ways to level the point game. So if people lose they don't quit.

We can always only give these points to a army that lost or tied to a team at a higher level if you think that would make it better.

Let me know guys there needs to be some sort of fix to the tournaments.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:32 am

Um I don't know how to play but my deamons are probably the closest army I have to painted. I can easily lose a horde of goblins since I don't know what I am doing.

Of course I could bring my night goblins and suck but still get bonus points...
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:46 am

The problem I see with this system is that luck could play a large roll in who wins. If you play one of the level 3 armies and happen to play level 2 armies the entire time and manage to win the games they'll place higher/win the tourney where as another level 3 army that plays two level 2's and one level 3 will place lower/loss, and only because of the opponents they played, not necessarily because they weren't as good.

Plus generally a loss in a tournament means that you won't be winning as there are often times 1-2 undefeated players, giving people playing daemons bonus points is nice but in the end if the daemon player goes undefeated it may not make a difference.

Just my two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:20 am

I agree with pretty much everything all of you are saying there is flaws with what I'm doing I need suggestions. What do I change do you get the points if you play a higher tier and lose. Or do we keep the tournament the same. All I’m saying is in almost every tournament we play were there is a daemon players playing in it h wins. Not because he is a good player but because daemons are amazingly broken. Outside of ripping the army books apart and making our own what can we do to balance the game out?

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:09 pm

Stop letting daemons play in the fantasy tournaments. It might sound crazy but its true I have been to the last 5 fantasy tournaments at the banker and I think 3 or 4 of them were won by daemons players.

If people want to play daemons thats fine but they can just as easily go and slaughter some people in a friendly. If something isnt done either everyone is going to start playing daemons or no one is going to play. I know that I am getting a little tired of going to the tournaments winning 2 battles and then having to play a daemon army every time.

But I think changing the whole point system to adjust to the books is to much work and will make to many people angry.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:01 am

i would love to tell daemon players you can't play in our tournament the problem is thats not practical. People spend alot of money on there daemon army. we could always drop the extra points and go with no named charicters for any army. or a army by army point system

Daemons 2000

darkelves lizards vamps 2150

Bretonnia
Dwarfs
The Empire
High Elves
Skaven
Warriors of Chaos
Wood Elves
2250

Beast of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
2500

What do you all think of this ?

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:11 am

Have you ever played 2.5k Ogres vs 2k Demons?
What happened?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:03 pm

ogres will more then likly lose but i have never fought this stopping people from bringing named charicters however will stop alot of the gay in daemons.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:30 pm

I thought the last DC guy who one a tournament didn't bring any named characters. It was just a cream of the crop list with BT, Jugger Heralds, Horrors, Flamers and hounds. Eliminating named characters would do nothing to stop it. And I agree with you on our previous conversations, it's not the named special characters that are the problem...it's their REDICULOUS Core units.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:08 pm

but lowering the amount of points they get will stop them from being able to take all the stuff they want

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:00 pm

just have a rule where if you bring daemons scooter gets to nut-shot you?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:45 am

The other option is to fall back to the old list requirement (which I'm really surprised they dropped).

For every rare/special choice unit you take you need to take a core of that specific diety.

Ala if you want to take a pack of Flesh Hounds you have to take a unit of Bloodletters. This will prevent the cherry picking lists that take a BT, 3 units of horrors, 3 units of Flesh Hounds and 2 units of Flamers.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:22 am

Quote :
just have a rule where if you bring daemons scooter gets to nut-shot you?


I'm not going to lie this dose sound good to me.

In the end guys daemons are not the only problem darkelves vamps and lizards have some real balancing issues. lets try to lower the amount of points the to 4 can tack at first.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:45 pm

Well it's simple enough to balance lizards if you ask me: just make all steg mounts use up their corresponding rare/special as well. So if you take an engine that also counts as a rare. If you take a chief on a regular steg that also counts as a special. If you do that I think the army isn't that bad, no?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:25 am

Ok so I was looking thou the web for some already existing formats for a quote balanced system for fantasy and I found this

http://baddice.co.uk/downloads/thebaddicemasters2009.pdf

I played a similar set up at the last tournament I played in. I actually like this it helps people who are playing ogres and beast of chaos too still stay competitive tell me what you all think.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:26 pm

Kind of interesting to see the type of Lizardmen lists you can do with these restrictions. You'll never see Salamanders or Razordons, only one engine (cool with that), not really ever worth taking temple guard...seems an Old Blood list for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:54 pm

Don't agree with Dark Elves in Band A.

Not with general restrictions on rares & the other racial stuff. You can't take 2 hydras anyway, now in band A you're forced to choose between a hydra or 2RBT's?
Then you have, what.. a 40% penalty against victory points?

No sir, I don't like it.

I suspect you'll need to add the new skavens into Band A tho.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:44 pm

Martin I love you this was the format I played in spring field. Dark elves are the number 2 army there needs to be something to stunt them. I almost won that tournament with dark elves to. The only thing I disagree with in the entire format is that assassins count as a hero choice really makes dark elves weaker. And skaven aren’t that good. There good but not good enough for a tier A army. This is just an idea I think we can expand of it and come up with our own twist.

One of the biggest points these tournament are trying to make to people is to stop them from min maxing. Taking 2 hydras or 4 bolt throwers is counterproductive to a fluid tournament. Were you want there to be a even playing field for any army that shows up. I.e. trying to get people out of the rhythm of only taking that gay daemon list, or those damn dark elves. For instance I plan on taking ether beast of chaos or French people to the next tournament I'm in.

This is not my way of saying that there are some armies that are too good and need to be hampered. All I'm saying is it would be nice to have people not counting themselves out if there is a daemon player in the tournament.

This format try’s to even the playing field with these restrictions I can make a better list then I took down to their tournament. So assassins count as heroes ok now I'm not going to take any fine with me. No assassins 310 points get freed up now dark elves can take 2250 in a 2250 tournament not 2100 cool another 150 points I get too take.

So in the new format I can take 460 points of other stuff. We’re looking at 20 black guard now not 14. 15 shades not 5 and a unit of corsairs 24 strong full command frenzy banner. Or I could take 6 knights full command banner of slaughter. This new format helps in some ways. Am I going to miss my assassins yes of course. I'm still just fine thou. Some would say better.

Remember guys and gals it’s always best to play the tournament not your list.

Anyone else have anything to say about this set up for a tournament things that should be added or changed.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:51 am

The Bad Dice guys are good about breaking down the tournaments they play in on their podcasts, so after they run the Masters, they'll probably have a lot of good feedback that'll be worth listening through.

As for Skaven, keep in mind that they're a giant question mark right now with the new book about to be released. From the sounds of it, the Abomination is borderline to the new cheese (but SAD has been toned down).
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:56 am

You are designing at tournament format with specifications to what is contradictory with how all of the current book formats are being made. You are basically taking the Army books and saying "Well the guy that wrote this did this wrong you can only have this and this. Not that and that." I have felt for a long time that these harsh army list restrictive tournaments go a little to far.

For instance I'm working on a chariot list for dark elves which contains 7 chariots in it, hydras, and darkriders. *honestly the hydras are an after thought and can be replaced.*
With this particular format I can't take this list. Even though I've spent money and time work on the models. I am being excluded from playing in this format.

My utter hatred for these restrictive tournament formats is you are focusing too much on playing the game and not caring for people who design interesting and unique army formats.

That is just my opinion on the format though it may be biased it is my opinion.

Later,
Greg aka Gz aka gregor
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:06 pm

GZealot wrote:
You are designing at tournament format with specifications to what is contradictory with how all of the current book formats are being made. You are basically taking the Army books and saying "Well the guy that wrote this did this wrong you can only have this and this. Not that and that." I have felt for a long time that these harsh army list restrictive tournaments go a little to far.

For instance I'm working on a chariot list for dark elves which contains 7 chariots in it, hydras, and darkriders. *honestly the hydras are an after thought and can be replaced.*
With this particular format I can't take this list. Even though I've spent money and time work on the models. I am being excluded from playing in this format.

My utter hatred for these restrictive tournament formats is you are focusing too much on playing the game and not caring for people who design interesting and unique army formats.

That is just my opinion on the format though it may be biased it is my opinion.

Later,
Greg aka Gz aka gregor

There's a variety of tournaments that allow for such things - such as Ard Boyz and the various Indy GT's. As does most in-store tournaments and of course club play.

So you have a lot of venues in which to bring your list. Having a restricted tournament allows others who want to focus on other aspects of the game to have a venue to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:41 pm

This tournament is a tournament were you being told to bring a named Character. Greg I finished the dark elf fluff there isn't 1 list that restricts what you want to take. SO where is the complaint?
I know I really need to put the lists I’ve completed on the site I’ll do it as soon as I can.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:43 pm

I'm not looking to completely balance any book I'm just giving people a tournament were they can play a big game and have allot of stuff on the table. Without letting some player tack, I don't know 3 slanns 6 ancient stags and 60 skinks cause that’s not fun to play against funny but not fun.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:29 pm

Whoops I completely forgot that most of my post had related to the baddice tournament format. I've never been a fan of tournament formats that restrict army list compositions. Are these talks about formats specifically on the ICGC or are you planning for all of you fantasy run tournaments?
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:10 am

no planing for 1 tournament i think were going to hold it 1 time each year just a bigger tournament that no ones doing.

Bring your King




Is the title of the event. That why were fluffing list for the king. people will take a named charicter then not take the stuff the fluff sayes it would have taken.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:21 pm

another way to halt the top lists from easy wins is to increase the minimum victory points for the bands to get a win.

for example:

Demons are Band "A"

if they play another Band A, they will use the normal victory point conditions.

if they play a Band "B", then it would be the following:

Draw: 0-399
Minor Victory: 400-699
Major Victory: 700-1399
Massacre: 1400+

and if they were to play Band "C":

Draw: 0-599
Minor Victory: 600-1199
Major Victory: 1200-1599
Massacre: 1600+

This will of course not make impossible for a Band "A" army to get those wins, but it will make it harder.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:22 pm

and Tomb Kings should not be in the band that gives them 2500 points. that is ridiculous that army is fine in the band that gives them 2250
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:54 pm

There are only a few people that play TK anyway, not sure it matters what band they play in. I definitely think they are worse off than most of the 2250 band armies. (WoC, new Skaven, HE). If you ghey up empire and dwarves it can be pretty horrendous also. I could make the same argument for Orcs and Goblins. I know at least one person who has no problem winning with them. doesn't mean they are as good as HE, WoC, or new Skaven.
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:04 pm

well you also though Khorne Demons were tame Wink

but orcs dont have the tools to be consistantly competitive. they are a great army and i dont have a problem winning with them either. but let us compare the 2:

Orcs:

Low Leadership
Animosity
Low Armor Saves
very unpredictable

Tomb Kings:

Immune to Psycology
All cause Fear
Unbreakable (for all intensive purposes)
Undead with shooting
Cannot miscast

thats just a few of the pro's and con's. My buddy Matt Lew would never loose a game if he got to play with 250-500 more points then everyone else. as would most experienced generals.

just my two cents but i would be very careful whar armies you put where if you go to that system.

if you do go to that system and keep TK's there i know what my next army will be! Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:04 am

Quote :
another way to halt the top lists from easy wins is to increase the minimum victory points for the bands to get a win.

for example:

Demons are Band "A"

if they play another Band A, they will use the normal victory point conditions.

if they play a Band "B", then it would be the following:

Draw: 0-399
Minor Victory: 400-699
Major Victory: 700-1399
Massacre: 1400+

and if they were to play Band "C":

Draw: 0-599
Minor Victory: 600-1199
Major Victory: 1200-1599
Massacre: 1600+

This will of course not make impossible for a Band "A" army to get those wins, but it will make it harder.


I like this idea it looks like a good way of running a tournament not bad joe not bad.

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PostSubject: Re: fantasy tournaments?   Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:39 pm

Only one way to see if people like it is to try it so got to get this going then
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