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 The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion

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Lincoln

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PostSubject: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:56 pm

I've been playing Warhammer for a few years now and it always bother me when someone says "oh you play 40k" or "oh you play Fantasy".

I believe both games can be fun.

I think Warhammer Fantasy takes more generalship and tactics to win. Warhammer Fantasy armies move differently, have different spell lore to choose from, some do not excel in combat while others thrive, some can have 25+ casting dice, some shoot to win. Warhammer Fantasy even has an extra phase, which in my opinion makes it at least 25% more complex and difficult to master. 40k - simple everyone moves 6 or 12 inches. everyone shoots, and everyone shoots some more. I don't think combat heavy armies are a realistic way to play 40k if you expect to win in a tournament. It all comes down to how many Lascannon shots do you have vs. your opponent.

I think of 40k like training wheels on a bicycle, when you grow up, and want a real game... play Warhammer Fantasy.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:00 pm

or Warmachine, I'm just saying...

This conversation leads to the way of pain, where nobody wins and 20 posts from now you lock the thread. Amirite!
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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:17 pm

LoL. Nah I think 40k players see the writing on the wall, even if it is in crayon.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:22 pm

I think both games take skill to play but Warhammer Fantasy takes a lot longer to be good at.

I have played both for about 12 years now and I like both games but fantasy is my top pic.

40k used to be a lot like fantasy back in the day but now the rules have been dumbed down so that younger kids can play so that GW can make more money from it.

Sadly fantasy has also started to take that turn as well.

Guess weapons (or ordincace) are a joke in 40k where in fantasy you actually have to guess the range on table.

And in 40k you can make a ton of mistakes and still win a game where in fantasy just setting up your models at the start the game could make you lose right away.

Like I said I like both games alot and I am not downing 40k or anything, but I think fantasy is a game for the real tactician and 40k is more of a relaxed fun game to go and hope you get lucky with your armor pens.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:47 pm

Other than "because it's easier" why do more people play 40k than Fantasy? I saw the amount of participants in 40k tournaments at Adepticon and it was 2:1 compared to Fantasy. I think with the individual measuring of every model, 40k lends itself to cheating much more than Fantasy does. Is this why 40k players argue and whine so much? I am not saying that EVERY 40k player argues and whines, but when you compare the atmosphere at a 40k vs Fantasy tournament it's pretty scary.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:21 pm

guns>arrows

That's basically it. There's also a certain teenage power fantasy component to 40k that I don't think is in WFB (little boys with their voices changing or living in their mom's basements like to think they could be a space marine.)

I think too that it helps that there are clearly drawn good and bad guys in the 40k world (as long as you don't get too deeply into it.) So it's more attractive as a simple narrative.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:11 pm

i like 40k better but fantacy is alot more stratagy to play and is more conpetitive but 40k can still be conpetitive as well
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:13 pm

I think that most people like 40k because sci-fi and dudes with guns and rifles are cooler these days than are fairies and dragons, according to public opinion.

I've been meaning to get into fantasy and I have a WoC army right now, in the works. I had some good momentum in painting it but that went all down the tubes when I tried playing with them. I have a whole set of problems with Fantasy.

The rules for fantasy are, in my opinion, really messed up, almost broken. I've tried to get into it but the rules just got in the way of having a good time.

Let's start with the magic phase. We spent like 20 minutes doing a Magic Phase that in the end had NO results. I tried to cast some spells, they were all dispelled. When my opponent tried to cast some spells they were dispelled. I was like the frig is the point of having magic when you never get any frigging spells off. Honestly, first you have spend all these power dice to cast a friggin spell and then your opponent just goes "dispell scroll" and you're like "jeez why bother?"

Combat. The combats and movements are horribly complicated. In combats with multiple units, when one units breaks versus two or three enemy units it becomes this long page-flipping quest through the rulebook to figure out who pursues what and in what direction. Guh. And I was playing with guys who had been playing fantasy for years.

Game Balance. In 40k, the armies are more balanced. Fantasy seems to have suffered greatly from armies like VC and Daemons being WAY more powerful than say orcs and goblins and empire. That's why most Fantasy Tournaments have comp and 40k doesn't.

You gotta wonder too, when you see pics of armies from Tournaments, none of the armies actually look like armies. They look like 2 Dragons accompanied by a couple chariots. Fantasy seems to be slanted more toward small units with high impact rather than rank and file (which is what I wanted to play with WofC...sadly I guess I have to get 3 chariots and 2 Chaos Dragons and I will win...). Correct me if I am wrong but Rank and File, which fantasy was supposed to be about, is dead.

It seems to me that 40k has a tighter and more flexible ruleset. Movement, easy. Psychic powers, easy. Combat, easy. Shooting, easy. All this adds up to faster game play and more time to think about tactics and strategy! Honestly I want an easy to learn ruleset. That doesn't mean that the game is less challenging tactically. Plus you have the interesting element of outflanking, deepstriking and reserves that you just don't have in fantasy.

That's just my rant of me trying to get into fantasy and being disappointed in the game. Its a shame because the models are beautiful. those new ORc Boarboys oh man!

Overall though, its seems that GW has really gone and effed up Fantasy and I think that's why more people play 40k. A simple ruleset with plenty of tactical elements.
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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:30 pm

Tim in a multiple combat result you always flee from the unit with the largest unit strength. In the result of a tie you'd roll off. Magic phase can make or break a lot of games it's unfortunate that you didn't get to see it in action - Chaos has some of the best magic in game. fantasy tournaments don't always have comp - just the good ones. Bu then again think about how cool a 40k tournament would be if everyone was only allowed 5 lascannons, or 1 landraider. You'd see a lot more units on the board that people usually don't play with (assault bikes, maybe?). Psychic powers in 40k (especially Space Wolves are just stupid - yes I play Tyranids). you know they have 8th edition Fantasy coming out in July - I hear rank and file combat is going to be a lot cooler than it is now - and i already love it. We should play a game with your Chaos. How much do you have painted? And for the record two chaos dragons and 3 chariots isn't going to win you any games. Stick with your blocks of warriors, a couple of hellcannons or Giants, some fast cavalry, some shweet magic and you're set.

Also - some of the meanest lists come from Empire- don't get me started on Josh's Orcs and Goblins. You know he won our last Fantasy tournament with them. Crushed everyone, yes even crushed Daemons.

Josh and Orcs and Goblins is like Scooter with Sisters of Battle. Pfft..
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Martin

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:32 pm

This thread has to be some kind of a test.
Diabolical scheme of a master scoundrel or something.
Perhaps just plain old trollbait. Very Happy

Bloodbowl is clearly the best anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:32 pm

Rank and file works wonders you just have to have the right army list to make it work

VC, Goblins, Skaven, Dark Elves, High Elves on do great with tons of rank and file units.

And the people you were playing with must not have known the rules very well because it shouldnt take that long to do anything!!!

Its true magic does suck some times, but you have to play your magic right, its something that takes a long time to master.

And its true 40k goes easier its made for a younger crowd so that the rules are easier to understand. It flows faster, that is why they started LOTR because the games go so fast.

And fantasy does have reserves, and stuff like that you just have to find the right army with the special rules. Even skaven and tomb kings have units that basically deep strike.

the new 8th edition rules are coming out in july so you should check those out before you throw in the towel on fantasy.
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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:36 pm

Martin wrote:
This thread has to be some kind of a test.
Diabolical scheme of a master scoundrel or something.
Perhaps just plain old trollbait. Very Happy

Bloodbowl is clearly the best anyway.

Just a discussion - sick of the "oh you play Fantasy" remarks.

I wouldn't mind playing you at Bloodbowl sometime. I had a bad experience last time I played.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:45 pm

joko12 wrote:
VC, Goblins, Skaven, Dark Elves, High Elves on do great with tons of rank and file units.

Goblins? I fail too see how infantry goblins are good for anything other than carrying fanatics, which, unless you want to throw them through your own units, are unreliable.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:46 pm

I would be willing to give it another try.

I actually was listening to Podhammer a lot and after a while I realized that even those guys were sick of the sorry state of Fantasy right now.

In either game, i think it depends on who you are playing and what armies you are playing. Just because 40k has simpler rules doesn't make it less challenging. I mean Chess has the easiest ruleset in the world and have stood the test of time and would never be called a simple game.

I actually think both games, 40k and Fantasy, are made for the same age group.

Honestly I would never really hold it against anyone for playing one game over the other.
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Martin

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:09 pm

@Tim Give this one a shot, Ep 19 of the socal warhammer podcast.
http://podcast.socalwarhammer.net/2010/03/28/episode-19-ogre-kingdoms-with-mike-manzak-the-2010-broadside-bash-winner-and-tournament-etiquette.aspx
Fricken great interview with Mike Manzak who won a GT with ogres.


@Jonny Goblins are ok, Dirt cheap 5 Static rez and with the netters they work by bringing opponents down to their level. +Giggles. Stick em on the flank and your opponent has to deal with the fanatic threat. Unreliable is just another way to say there's an element of luck involved Smile

@Lincoln Sure, I'm working up a few new teams atm and I've got some ideas for BB events.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:08 pm

Yeah you take units of night goblins 30+ strong with netters and bsb that gives them stubborn so good

and fantaics pop on the charge amazing.

Ask Lincoln how good Gobbo units can be haha took out a unit of 20 plague bearers, 30 horrors and 3 flesh hounds with 2 units of 30 gobbos haha
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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:42 pm

I swear Josh and the devil came to an arrangement when it comes to Orcs and Goblins.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:47 am

hahaha hahaha I have never lost with them!!!
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:17 am

joko12 wrote:
Yeah you take units of night goblins 30+ strong with netters and bsb that gives them stubborn so good

and fantaics pop on the charge amazing.

How exactly are the fanatics popping on the charge since you would need to be 8" away to charge which by then would of triggered the fanatics already.

joko12 wrote:
Ask Lincoln how good Gobbo units can be haha took out a unit of 20 plague bearers, 30 horrors and 3 flesh hounds with 2 units of 30 gobbos haha

Thats like saying "ask how good my army is when I roll nothing but 6s". One attack per model on a WS-2 S-3 model shouldn't be enough to even take out horrors, so you would need to roll unbelievably high to kill an entire unit before they just go and magic you to death, and the thought of goblins taking out plague bearers seems almost impossible. Also, the only way they have to kill anything moderately tough is the fanatics who are more likely to not reach your target when you first through them (7/12 chance of not rolling an 8 or higher). Then in subsequent turns, they have a 50% chance to come back towards your army.

Its not impossible for OnG to beat Daemons, or any army, but it would rely on extremely above average rolls to happen.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:19 am

when all 6's count as 1's - daemons have a 1/6 chance of making an armor save... magic, and combat goes to the crapper.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:42 am

dude jonny your so wrong about goblins its funny im not going to argue with you because its so funny how wrong you are
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:58 am

"On the charge" then presumably means when you get charged? And not sure about this, but if they shoot fanatics at a charging unit would that be a failed charge?
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:00 am

Lincoln wrote:
when all 6's count as 1's - daemons have a 1/6 chance of making an armor save... magic, and combat goes to the crapper.

So every single game the OnG player is going to get that one spell and the Daemon player is going to let it go off every time?
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:07 am

well in a compd tournament when you have 9 dd (including scrolls) it's either that goes off or he gets half points for my heroes every round. He did get it irresistible twice too. And he can cast it twice per turn maybe more. enlighten us Josh, I forget.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:09 am

Stop the theory hammer stay on topic. I get it Jonny war machine is the greatest game on the face of the planet go play.

I like fantasy more than 40k because every army can beet every army. There is never a situation were the dice couldn't go your way. There is allot more to think about and the players are usually nice. While I will agree there are way too many rule debates in fantasy.

I still like 40k it is just to rock paper scissors for me to call it my fav.

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:14 am

True. One of the main problems with 40k right now, is that you always have to stack up on certain wargear to win games..ahem, melta.

Playing my Warriors of Chaos, I get the feeling that since I have to cross the table, if I am matched up against a shooty army with lots of magic...say Elves or something. Can I still beat them? It seems all they have to do is step back and shoot until my units crumble. Is that so, or am I missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:15 am

scooter wrote:
Stop the theory hammer stay on topic. I get it Jonny war machine is the greatest game on the face of the planet go play.

I never said anything about Warmachine. I never even said once in the topic that Fantasy or 40k are bad games. All I was doing is questioning a Goblins ability to bring down a plague bearer.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:18 am

Well i saw it happen, so... neway. back on topic.



TimW- Chaos have some really fast moving units that wreck house on shooty armies - put a daemon prince in your list, a unit of knights and some fast cavalry and he wont have time to shoot at your rank and file. nevermind your hellcannons either marching 12" in his face at tough 6 or shooting his archers and panicing them off the table turn 1/2. I think Chaos is one of the most well balanced armies in fantasy atm.

Like Scooter said you can never expect to win all games in fantasy. But Chaos you have a pretty damned good shot.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:32 am

Well that's encouraging. I'm gonna need to start getting them painted. Right now only got about 8 chaos warriors and Scylla painted.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:40 am

Quote :
I never said anything about Warmachine. I never even said once in the topic that Fantasy or 40k are bad games. All I was doing is questioning a Goblins ability to bring down a plague bearer.

the topic is what is better fantasy or 40k you said goblins blaaa blaaaa blaaaa

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:49 am

Warhammer Ancients.


It's Fantasy without the unbalancing movement, S/T combos, and crazy magic phase. It has even better fluff than 40K, as after all it is based on the weight and majesty of 6000 years of human history. It is part of a massive world-wide hobby of historical wargaming. And it has excellent, mature, adult gamers -- I've had very, very few bad games of Warhammer Ancients.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:50 am

Where and when do you play it? I know Scooter and I saw some folks playing it at Adepticon.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:55 pm

i would kill to play that i really want to play the romans

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:59 pm

There is apparently a crew near Philly that plays Ancient semi-regularly, that is looking for more young(er) blood. They posted the following on the Warmonger Club forums:

http://warmongers.ziggyqubert.com/wmbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12487

The Historical Miniatures Gaming Society has a page with various clubs listed, including a number in Maryland. No guarantee that they play Ancients, but anything you build in 25mm (for other systems) can be used for Ancients with relatively little trouble.

http://www.hmgs.org/clubs.htm



Myself, I play Ancients on-and-off at the Warmonger Club, and also with some guys in Brooklyn and Manhattan who are all long-time historical gamers. (don't forget, I live in northern Jersey) I don't get out to Brooklyn that frequently, but they game basically every week.

There are also the three annual historical gaming conventions. The next one this year is Historicon: http://www.historicon.org/

The other two are Cold Wars (in the early part of the year), and Fall Out (in the later part).
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Tue May 04, 2010 11:27 pm

I mainly play 40K. To be honest I think both systems are iffy at this point.

In 40K, GW wants people to buy more models so they are screwing with the codecies. You seem to run into more assholes players. I am starting to get tired of playing people that don't know the rules for their own army. Hell half the people seem to be borrowing someone else's army and don't even own the rulebook/codex.

In Fantasy, I think if they only way to play games is to use comp that is a big red warning sign saying, guys we got something wrong here. In WFB you seem to run into more asshole lists. Fantasy is the worst offender on codex creep. I love collecting my night goblins, but I am tired of having 33% of my movement decided for me (1 for don't do %$@@, 6 for charge....) for a game that relies on movement that is a deal breaker.

40K makes it easier for people that don't know the rules to play with the wrong rules. WFB make is harder for people that don't know the rules play an excruciating game of, look in the index. At least with 40k when you are learning to play you get to shoot people. In fantasy when you are learning to play you get learn how to get routed.

BTW saying that since there are more models people cheat more in 40k is asinine, WFB players are more then capable about lying about their movement. I am also sorry that you think that futuristic ordnance weapons should be more accurate then someone throwing a big rock in the air.

Both systems are leaving a sour taste in my mouth at the moment. WFB has some hope since 8th is coming out in 3 months. Anyway I think I will finish putting my FoW tanks together.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 7:42 am

Thought about FoW but can't get into playing with micro machines. Models are too small.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 10:34 am

Yeah I think I'm kinda on hold for Fantasy except for maybe getting a few more models (minos) for my Beastmen army. Just because the rumors have me very worried about how my VC are going to be doing in the future.

Overall I tend to like playing Fantasy more then I like 40k, don't really know why other then I tend to do better in fantasy then 40k.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 11:24 am

Simply put Necromunda is the best of all of them. True line of sight, specialized guys, a fully three dimensional board. 'Nuff Said.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 12:02 pm

Oh look, another one of these threads. Let me just put my cheap ass unit of pointless flyers next to your uber unit and watch it mill about movement blocked. Jee, that makes me so strategic.

I NOW AM TACTICALLY SUPERIOR TO YOU ALL.

Saying one is better or more tactical than the other is like arguing over the superiority of football vs. baseball. You can't win it, and you sound like an opinionated retard when you try.
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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 1:16 pm

Quote :
Saying one is better or more tactical than the other is like arguing over the superiority of football vs. baseball. You can't win it, and you sound like an opinionated retard when you try.

easy soccer is better

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 1:56 pm

MVBrandt wrote:
Oh look, another one of these threads. Let me just put my cheap ass unit of pointless flyers next to your uber unit....

I assume you must be referring to your Guard Valkyries and Vendettas???
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MVBrandt



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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 2:05 pm

LOL well played ... as Brent said my army was teh most broken evar!
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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 2:09 pm

I didn't play 4th edition 40k but looking at The Great War WW1 rules (based on 4th edition 40k) it seems like there was a lot more strategy in the previous version of 40k -

models that can shoot vs. models that can die (i.e. only models in your gun range can actually die)

taking leadership checks to shoot at something other than the closest unit/threat

screening with units block LOS vs everything can see/shoot everything (you just get cover saves)

did GW dumb down the rules for 40k? If so, I hope they don't do the same in 8th edition fantasy.
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scooter

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 2:38 pm

I can wait to play great war.

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Tim



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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 4:47 pm

Simply put yes, the game was dumbed down significantly. It was a lot more strategic about which unit goes where, as trees etc completely blocked line of sight past a few inches, units got in the way of one another, and all sorts of things that I thought made the game more enjoyable.

That said, vehicles were all but useless in that edition, and transports suffered enormously so...do what you gotta do I suppose.
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MVBrandt



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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 4:49 pm

I expect this is where you get into opinion.

Being able to completely block giant warmachines or entire infantry units just by sticking them behind ... oh ... a rhino or two ... was pretty retarded, and made the game much simpler than true line of sight.

This is an impossible discussion, always will be Smile

I like 40k ... I think Fantasy is cool too. THE OP IS TROLLING HIS OWN FORUM!
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BrianF

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 7:32 pm

Just because they streamed lined some of the rules doesn't mean it is dumbed down or easier to play. Just look at LoTR it was made for kindergardeners to play, but people seem to enjoy it somehow.

I think in 40k 4ed they tried to make it so that the rules didn't get in the way as much, and tried to speed up the game. Faster games mean bigger games, mean more miniatures, mean PROFIT!#@!@!#@#.

I like collecting models from both systems, I might not like the rules sometimes, but because I like the models I will always play WFB/40K.

FoW is a nice diversion. Playing 15mm scale is actually not bad since you get more of a battlefield thing going on instead of a skirmish. Ofcourse I think Epic and Battle Fleet are also fun. OH who wants to play MAN-O-WAR? =P
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ecurb12

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Wed May 05, 2010 9:08 pm

OP? Trolling? Is this /b/? Lol
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Sorrow

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Thu May 06, 2010 2:21 am

Oh god I hope not. Let's keep that cancer contained as best we can mkay?
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Sorrow

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PostSubject: Re: The Almighty 40k vs Fantasy Discussion   Thu May 06, 2010 2:28 am

Lincoln wrote:


models that can shoot vs. models that can die (i.e. only models in your gun range can actually die)

that was tried in 3rd edition 40k. led to model sniping. "well if your lascannon in that 10 man squad of marines is the only one in range of my melta gun, i guess he's got to go"
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