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 Balancing 40k

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Lincoln

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:09 am

Everyone think before you post or you will suffer my Admin skills. Personal attacks can be tolerated I suppose... but let's keep the punches clean.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 am

yeah and if you don't want to read or talk about this stuff or complain then get off the thread no one wants to hear you complain

people want to hear constructive ideas
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:17 am

lol... go away 6's count as 1's. Boooooo hiss....
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:32 am

haha
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:38 am

Look guys this thread is a great idea but in no way is this a Inner Circle idea. This idea is Brent’s and It's one I agree with.
I agree with most of you that messing with the books in any way just leads to the next broken army. If Brent goes down the lists of the codex's and tries to fix them all he will forget something, we will have a tournament and a "broken army" will win it. This is what I mean the best book in 40k are IG and Space wolfs and sisters you nerf them all of a sudden teranids are the bomb and they kill all you can’t do it book to book you need blanket rules.

Am I a fan of comp tournament hell yes. Am I a fan of comp tournaments in 40k I don't know I’ve never played in one. Do I fell I need a comp tournament in 40k to win hell NO I’ll play anyone any time with my sisters. Sisters that people call cheesy. I play what I like and I don't think Brent Me or anyone can call anyone a power gamer even thou I am /Cough. I play to win others play to win that’s why it's called a tournament the goal is to win so why wouldn't people bring the GAY I would.

But to brents main point what should we do? I don't think telling people you can only have 3 tanks, or you have to take 40% troops and all is that good of an idea. I do like the no duplicating 3 of the same choices fast heavy and so on. I think you should look to that direction. Making the minimum troop choice a minimum of 4 would be nice. Stuff like that is what I would like to see.

And on a side note I don't know if everyone knows this but Brent doesn’t like kill points. But if I were to play guard I would win in kill points all the time there a good fix. Put kill points back into our tournaments so when I play against guard, what are you all calling it “Leaf blower list" I will win.

Again guys and gals hopefully this tread is supposed to be constructive not filled with NERD RAGE. Help Brent with a comp system he can use not tell him you hate IG you hate NOB BIKERS you’re a hater.

P.S. Brent you are pretty GAY yourself I 3 5 inch pie plates str 10 in a 1000 points .

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:06 am

well scooter, a squadron is one kill point so a guard list with 9 vendettas and 6vet squads ad a hq and pyker squad only like 13 points pretty average, that part of the reason why squadrons of heavier vehicles breaks the game
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:13 am

Quote :
Everyone think before you post or you will suffer my Admin skills. Personal attacks can be tolerated I suppose... but let's keep the punches clean.

Help help I'm being oppressed.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:21 am

avatar8481 wrote:
Quote :
Everyone think before you post or you will suffer my Admin skills. Personal attacks can be tolerated I suppose... but let's keep the punches clean.

Help help I'm being oppressed.

just like the white man to keep us down
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:24 am

Trolls, both of you.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:26 am

Brent wrote:
my main desire is to run an even that is devoid of your classic arb boys lists that is all, so if you have any ideas on how to have a themed list type event post them here or pm me

20% battle points
60% painting and modeling
20% theme and story

No special characters unless you pre-submit a nice fluffy storey about why the character is in the army, and you make the judge cry.

And little chocolate mints put on each table at the start of each game. Everyone loves the little chocolate mints.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:29 am

I like the comp where hard lists play hard lists to start off, and then you go battle points after that and match up the hard lists with the hard lists after matching up battle point brackets.

So if two softer armies win and two hard armies win then the hard armies play each other and the soft list play each other as well
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:22 pm

Oh satire, you hurt so good:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/04/wargaming-askew-dont-let-soft-scores.html

I've definitely been the guy with the spreadsheet. But this is my favorite part:

Quote :
Another problem with ditching soft scores; you are left with doing the unthinkable-- playing by the actual rules. I know I should get an enema for even thinking it. It would require putting my purely subjective and untested system against the professionally play-tested system.Who would want to play with rules they are familiar with, when you can play with rules I made up after a few too many beers? I am glad that no one wants to blame me because often I am the only tournament in town and as long as I put the word tournament in the title, then at least we can all pretend it is competitive.
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Brent

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:17 pm

mikhaila wrote:
Brent wrote:
my main desire is to run an even that is devoid of your classic arb boys lists that is all, so if you have any ideas on how to have a themed list type event post them here or pm me

20% battle points
60% painting and modeling
20% theme and story

No special characters unless you pre-submit a nice fluffy storey about why the character is in the army, and you make the judge cry.

And little chocolate mints put on each table at the start of each game. Everyone loves the little chocolate mints.

i'm not trying to be mean but that sounds horrible, 60% painting and modeling will in now way prevent cheese list they will just be very pretty cheese lists
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:21 pm

avatar8481 wrote:
Oh satire, you hurt so good:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/04/wargaming-askew-dont-let-soft-scores.html

I've definitely been the guy with the spreadsheet. But this is my favorite part:

Quote :
Another problem with ditching soft scores; you are left with doing the unthinkable-- playing by the actual rules. I know I should get an enema for even thinking it. It would require putting my purely subjective and untested system against the professionally play-tested system.Who would want to play with rules they are familiar with, when you can play with rules I made up after a few too many beers? I am glad that no one wants to blame me because often I am the only tournament in town and as long as I put the word tournament in the title, then at least we can all pretend it is competitive.

all vet player know hat the problems are, and yes i think we know better than GW, the question then becomes what do we do about it? and play war machine may not be the answer that all people are looking for, but it is a good game don't get me wrong
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:21 pm

Brent wrote:
well scooter, a squadron is one kill point so a guard list with 9 vendettas and 6vet squads ad a hq and pyker squad only like 13 points pretty average, that part of the reason why squadrons of heavier vehicles breaks the game

I'll admit that's pretty ghey but look at it this way:

Squadron of 3 Vendettas around 400 pts (dodge the GW hamma)
--Have to move the same
--Have to stay in coherency
--Have to shoot the same target
--They will be destroyed on an Immobilized+

So in effect the player is getting extra vehicles for the cost of a +33% chance that every vehicle will be destroyed.

EDIT: Warmachine actually has MORE of the problems your talking about here. The system lends itself to powerful combos and popular lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:26 pm

Baneon wrote:
Brent wrote:
well scooter, a squadron is one kill point so a guard list with 9 vendettas and 6vet squads ad a hq and pyker squad only like 13 points pretty average, that part of the reason why squadrons of heavier vehicles breaks the game

I'll admit that's pretty ghey but look at it this way:

Squadron of 3 Vendettas around 400 pts (dodge the GW hamma)
--Have to move the same
--Have to stay in coherency
--Have to shoot the same target
--They will be destroyed on an Immobilized+

So in effect the player is getting extra vehicles for the cost of a +33% chance that every vehicle will be destroyed.

but squadrons also get to ignore shaken and stunned results and after two are destroyed the last one reverts to a normal vehicle, so in my view it is well worth what you pay
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:30 pm

ok what about no units over 300 points, at least 4 troops, and no triplicate choices in you special slots ie no more than 2 vindicators or russ or hammerheads whatever
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:31 pm

I like it it cahnges up what i would bring in my sisters list what do the rest of you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:31 pm

Not quite Brent.

Page 64 of the rulebook says all stunned results count as shaken and the squadron has to maintain proximity.

So they can move, maintaining coherency but they can't shoot which is win. If you've been up against what you say then yeah they would be wrecking house cause the people are CHEATING.

You are correct on the single model left though.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:33 pm

Brent wrote:
ok what about no units over 300 points, at least 4 troops, and no triplicate choices in you special slots ie no more than 2 vindicators or russ or hammerheads whatever

What about Infantry platoons? I can run 3 squads with heavy weapons and 2 special squads with flamers and demo and be over 300. Not cheese but it it goes over your 300 limit. Just a thought, it's not like I can't follow it just asking.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:57 pm

i'm sure you could get all the infantry you would need in 6 slots, but i would have to look more closely at there book, but if i'm not going to make special restrictions i can't make exceptions either, if we make blanket rules they have to be blanket, 300 hundred was just an arbitrary number i just took the highest, 250, amount you see on vehicles and added 50 points for additional armory stuff, what number do you feel would be better?
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:17 pm

Brent wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
Brent wrote:
my main desire is to run an even that is devoid of your classic arb boys lists that is all, so if you have any ideas on how to have a themed list type event post them here or pm me

20% battle points
60% painting and modeling
20% theme and story

No special characters unless you pre-submit a nice fluffy storey about why the character is in the army, and you make the judge cry.

And little chocolate mints put on each table at the start of each game. Everyone loves the little chocolate mints.

i'm not trying to be mean but that sounds horrible, 60% painting and modeling will in now way prevent cheese list they will just be very pretty cheese lists

Oh, it wasn't very serious. But it would accomplish what you want. No one playing a cheese list would come. You'd only attract the people that mostly cared about painting and modeling. A lot of times those choices are made based on the look of the models, and conversion opportunities, and not on the rules the models use. You'd have an aweful lot of oddball armies show up that don't necessarily play well, but look darn good doing it.

Cheese wouldn't be much of a factor, since winning doesn't affect your score that much.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:19 pm

I don't believe you can "fix" the game with blanket rules. Armies can be "broken" in different ways. Making all these rules will stop a few of the "cheese", but not all of it. It will also hurt the people that weren't making broken lists. If you want to "fix" the game, you will have to spend hundreds of hours going through all of the books and play-test extensively to find out whats broken, and whats the best way to go about fixing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:56 pm

blanket rules, not necessarily to try and balance things, but to give a new flavor to a tournament. I understand what Brent is trying to accomplish here, he wants people to bring lists that they would not normally bring. He is of the opinion that all he sees doing well in tournaments are cookie cutter generic lists, such as the leafblower.

The only way to prevent this is by introducing a very abstract rule for a specific tournament, such as you must have an equal number of troop choices as your heavy support, elites, and fast attack combined. Again, just another example I came up with on the fly, however if I catch you actually using one without my permission there will be a small fee for my counsel.

On the other hand, Brent, you clearly dislike 'ard boyz lists. What defines an 'ard boyz list? What if i've never been to an 'ard boyz tournament and happen to think that using 2 lash daemon princes or vulkan heston with 30 drop pods is a good idea without being influenced by "cheesy" players? Should my untainted ideas be punished because i'm good at listmaking? Admittedly, I'm not a great list writer, but this is all theoretical Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:08 pm

Quote :
On the other hand, Brent, you clearly dislike 'ard boyz lists.

It's not that he doesn't like them, it's that he doesn't like it when they beat his hard list (dual nob bikers).
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:26 pm

I'm not sure I don't know all the 40k books like I'm familiar with the Fantasy side of the house. I just know what I've played. What books would have a problem with 'squads' being limited to 300 or less?

IG can work around the limitation
BA only affects Death Company squads
Eldar....don't think I can make a 300+ unit

Now this is all assuming your talking without characters and such attached. What if for example a character selection requires a unit selection? Say Straken in a command squad? I'm just throwing thoughts out there, trying to help.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:00 pm

what about a rule demanding one unit cost MORE than 500 points? sort of a "badass unit" rule for a tournament? Have a list of scenarios that involves doing cool %$@@ with your badasses. Most of the 'ard boyz lists aren't armies with huge 600 point units, they're min maxxed armies with over 9000 75 point units - see any good sisters army =P

edit: actually, !@#$ you brent, i like this idea and i'm gonna run it past my fellow FrAGgots to run this one ourselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:58 am

I like the idea of 4 troops choices and a max around 350 for a unit. That will make people think harder about their lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:21 am

Jonny wrote:
I don't believe you can "fix" the game with blanket rules. Armies can be "broken" in different ways. Making all these rules will stop a few of the "cheese", but not all of it. It will also hurt the people that weren't making broken lists. If you want to "fix" the game, you will have to spend hundreds of hours going through all of the books and play-test extensively to find out whats broken, and whats the best way to go about fixing it.

i already have spent hundreds of hours playing 40k
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:25 am

Sorrow wrote:
what about a rule demanding one unit cost MORE than 500 points? sort of a "badass unit" rule for a tournament? Have a list of scenarios that involves doing cool %$@@ with your badasses. Most of the 'ard boyz lists aren't armies with huge 600 point units, they're min maxxed armies with over 9000 75 point units - see any good sisters army =P

edit: actually, !@#$ you brent, i like this idea and i'm gonna run it past my fellow FrAGgots to run this one ourselves.

i actually think that sounds fun, you fraggot
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:19 am

cool, will advertise if it gets off the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:11 pm

I just wanted to Chime in and say that guard aren't broken, nor are they overpowered.

Enjoy.

-Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm

yes they are
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:57 pm

why doesn't someone explain why they think that guard are overpowered.

it's sort of silly that those pointing the finger find it so easy to say they guard are cheesy and expect it to be received as a well acknowledged fact, and then either berate those who disagree or fall into a "yuhhuh!""nuhhuh" fight. Also innocent until proven guilty, begin from the assumption that guard are fine, and try to prove to us that guard are more of a "broken" army than anything else.


Last edited by Sorrow on Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:01 pm

Its been done over and over again just go back and read
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:12 pm

not so much. it's just people raging at valk's and vend's without giving much reason beyond being slightly underpriced. When anyone argues, they're thrown insults.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:41 pm

The fact that you can take valks as transports, squadrons of tanks, and also the fact that you can take a bunch of chimeras and load them up with dudes that have meltas and take down stuff easy with them is a little cheap.

Granted you can do that with a bunch of armies but its still super cheesey epcially if you take an all chimera list.

Also back to the tank squads if you take the lemon russ with the gun that gets 20 shots and put them in a squadron of two or three 40-60 str 4 or 5 shots at almost any unit in the game is pretty much going to take it down.

They are not crazy broken like they can never loose im not saying that. But I do think that they are over powered in some areas.

Espically the people that abuse this and take like the 9 valk list which I have seen its just crazy strong
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:46 pm

you can take 3 squadrons of landspeeders as space marines, with typhoon missiles and multimeltas - at 100 points a pop.... are squadrons overpowered? or just IG squadrons?

Tanks, yes you can take squadrons of them, and they are very expensive. the one with 20 shots is both expensive and BS 3, 10 hits, 6-7 savable wounds against marines isn't shabby. IG tanks are slower and very costly.

also: squadron'd vehicles are destroyed on an immobilized result, meaning a glancing 6 and they're done, a penetrating 4 (3 with a melta) and they're done.

IG have strengths, but they aren't cheap and certainly not unstoppable.

edit: about chimaeras, what army CAN'T mech up completely? tyranids and necrons? that's it.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:50 pm

now a twin linked las on a razor back, 35 points, grant it's bs 4 but when twin link who care, a valk has 3, lets lop off 5 points for the bs thats 90 points plus 40, and it scouts and has armor 12 side and front and it's fast and, they should cost a good 30 or 40 more points at least and when you take 6 of them it's like have a few hundred free points on the table, since guard can take as may tank as they want in any flavor inside 2k,it feel like you play apocalypse only your not cause i can't drop 9 vindicator on the table, people tell me it's cheese to run 2 vindicators guard can take 9 on and theres are front armor 14

guard are way under pointed and over powered deal with it
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:52 pm

landspeeders only have armor 10 you can blow them up alot easier so they dont even stack up compared to valks

and its not only 10 hits if there are 3 tanks thats why I said squardrons of them not just one by its self

and I never said you couldnt blow them up by if you have valks with lascannons why would you move close to someone so that a melta could hit you???

you can mech up any army but not everyone army can have tons of guys that can all have meltas shooting out of the tops and have a front armor of 12 or 13 not sure what chimeras are but they are much better then a rhino!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:33 pm

but really guys all theory hammer aside 9 tanks is better than 3, and people give me mad crap about running three, so the fact that any one thinks that it's ok for an army to be able to take 9 of any one kind of heavy or medium vehicle, none transport of course, is laughable, i mean if you think guard are balanced with the other 5th edition books released so far i must simply dismiss your opinions of war hammer as the ravings of a mad man
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 pm

One thing to take into account is the missions. Missions in tournaments can make all the difference in the world. Quite a few can give guard fits, and many other armies, a very rough time if they can't learn to adapt on the fly.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:34 pm

mikhaila wrote:
One thing to take into account is the missions. Missions in tournaments can make all the difference in the world. Quite a few can give guard fits, and many other armies, a very rough time if they can't learn to adapt on the fly.

very true sir
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:36 pm

Brent wrote:
but really guys all theory hammer aside 9 tanks is better than 3, and people give me mad crap about running three, so the fact that any one thinks that it's ok for an army to be able to take 9 of any one kind of heavy or medium vehicle, none transport of course, is laughable, i mean if you think guard are balanced with the other 5th edition books released so far i must simply dismiss your opinions of war hammer as the ravings of a mad man

exactly what i'm talking about. You disagree with me, therefor you're stupid or insane. I'm kind of shocked that you don't see the fallacy in that type of argument. You were okay early when you said that valks should cost more points than they do, and i'm willing to agree that they're a tad underpriced, however to call the entire codex broken because of which is silly. One unit cannot represent a codex.

"9 tanks is better than 3"
well of course 9 tanks is better than 3, but points for points, 9 tanks is the same as 3, and much more vulnerable as i explained in my last post. Enjoy dieing to AP1 weapons on a penetrating 3 or a glancing 5. If people are whining about fighting 9 tanks, they should learn about fifth edition and something called melta. and IG tanks are expensive. in the low to mid 200 point range for one tank. You mention people bringing 9? at what points value?

Quote :
now a twin linked las on a razor back, 35 points, grant it's bs 4 but when twin link who care, a valk has 3, lets lop off 5 points for the bs thats 90 points plus 40, and it scouts and has armor 12 side and front and it's fast and, they should cost a good 30 or 40 more points at least and when you take 6 of them it's like have a few hundred free points on the table, since guard can take as may tank as they want in any flavor inside 2k,it feel like you play apocalypse only your not cause i can't drop 9 vindicator on the table, people tell me it's cheese to run 2 vindicators guard can take 9 on and theres are front armor 14

guard are way under pointed and over powered deal with it

Okay, valks are a little underpriced, but that is perhaps a result of being able to take 9 of them. Considering the Ork boy. 6 points for a furious charging WS4, S3, T4, A3 (with weapons), is way under reasonable. However, because of the nature of the army, the only way to make a horde of Ork's even feasible is if the individual model is cheap. I didn't write the IG codex thus I am not aware of GW's intent for valks and vend's but following the logic, I don't view the points cost as overpowered.

Also to take 9 valks is going to cost about 1400-1500 points. And you accuse me of playing only apoc? at what 2000 point tournament is 9 lightly armored, highly visible and vulnerable squadron an efficient unit? I'm not seeing it.

in successful 40k listbuilding, points efficiency is king. You want the most bang for your buck. Are expensive tanks and hordes of fliers going to work? Maybe the latter, but it is hard to argue that you don't pay for what you get.


Also: I don't like apocalypse. I much prefer actual competitive tournaments. You know, ones where the experience playing difficult lists and tough, smart players in turn makes you a better player.

copied from your front page, your own mission statement

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9upTLWRZTfw

apparently you all need this.
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Brent

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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:40 am

valks are a tad more than a bit under pointed, 9 vendettas=1170, you said 1400 how? one can easily get 9 tanks in to a 200 point list, and yes guard are beatable i've beaten them but guard have an advantage over other books, if you can't see that i don't see how i can explain it any clearer, however any adjustment we make i a compt event would also be intended to prevent all the other books from min maxing and putting together broken combos too, also i never implied that you stupid i hope i did not come off as such that would have been rude of me, but if you think guard are balanced i stand by my statement that you must be bias or crazy

and man people need to let off this "it makes you a better player" stuff, that point is irrelevant, playing guard with space marines is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, that won't make you a better knife fighter it makes you dead
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:17 pm

and man people need to let off this "it makes you a better player" stuff, that point is irrelevant, playing guard with space marines is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, that won't make you a better knife fighter it makes you dead[/quote]

haha so funny cause its true

and once again how are 9 front and side armor 12 valks vunerable??? Unless your playing someone that has another valk list that army is anything but vunerable.

Like Brent said if you really honestly don't think that Guard are over powered then why at all the big tournaments are the majority or people playing guard???

Its not because everyone loves guard so much.....
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:52 pm

missile pods are another 30 points.

12 armor valks are vulnerable because of the squadron rule, and because armor 12 isn't all that tough. If armor 12 is tough for you, bring more anti-tank in your armies. This is 5th edition - people are going to mech up whether it's with rhinos and razorbacks or valks and chimaera's. Counter appropriately.
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:45 pm

Everyone can mech up your right but guard can mech up better then everyone else thus...

the over powered lists
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PostSubject: Re: Balancing 40k   Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:02 am

This is what GW wants. People didn't grab a hold of Apocalypse so they had to lower point costs in 5th edition because they want to sell more $50 tanks. Again remember GW is a model company not a tournament organizer.

They also didn't want to piss off all the people that played the old codex with their doctorines, they wanted people to be able to field their 6 Russ, or 13123 infantry. They came up with squadrons, and that works just fine in the heavy support slots. They did it to the Valks purely to sell models. The model is ill thought out, it's to large and has an annoying base.

This is the trend in all the 5th codex to get people to buy more models = profit. We pointed out TimW old Blood Angels army and he gets a free 150 points at 1850. This means another $30-$50 in GW's pocket.

In today's games you have to be able to deal with mech. That should be your first priority. Tournaments are not about fun flufly lists, they are about being number one. If you want something else then don't call it a tournament, call it a "Grand get together" you might actually get people to come and just tool around with weird lists, give prizes out randomly not to the general.

To be honest I think the people that lose their first game at tournaments have more fun. They are then put into the bracket were people are normally there just to play games, not to win at all costs.
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