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 Orc Q and A

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PostSubject: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:56 am

As some of you know, I'm bringing Orcs to the tourny this saturday , the one that has a cap of 9 power duce used per turn. As of now I have 2 lvl 2s and 1 scroll, along with the staff of sneaky stealing.
Here is my question: should the goblin shamen have the staff or 2 scrolls? That would give me three scrolls, or I could cut one and take some more magical item goodness.

The staff gives me an edge in dispelling for the whole game (or until the goblin kills himself...). Also, I am expecting most people who are using magic to be bringing exactly 9 dice per phase through casters, bounds, and other junk that counts as a power dice. By stealing one of their dice, I can really screw with their plans. Lastly, in my experiance the difference between 4 and 5 dispell dice is more than just one dice. With four dice, you either throw 2 dice on a minor spell and have to few left to acomlish much or throw three on a spell and are let with one useless dice. FIve lets you shut down a really major spell or go after 2 spells etc etc.

THe scrolls, however, may be the better options for a few reasons. Firstly, my army is fast and has some shooting. I am hoping that I can reduce the number of PDs my opponent has within the first few turns. The scrolls can let me lock down those first few turns before I can get to the mages. Also, cutting the staff ad adding only one scroll lets me take a powerstone to help get off some bigger spells when I really need too.

Itts a tough call, what do people think?
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scooter

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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:34 am

If your heart is set on two level 2's then I would take them staff and 3 scrolls you have 5 dispel dice plus 3 scrolls when you use your first one that adds 2 dispel dice to your pool.
so as long as you save you last scroll you'll be fine.

The way I look at it is like this you don’t have to really worrie about most spells the only spell I would worrie about if I was you is comet so scroll outside of that the scrolls are incase. I probably would just try to use my dice to stop spells.

I will say thou I loved all the bond spells you have in your list that was pretty cool. I'm asuming they were on your wizards. So that means you would have to take those away. Tough call my man tough call well I'll be with you all at least playing in the WOTR tournament.

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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:37 pm

You're dead on about the bound items. Without the bound spells my magic phase ceases to exist. I am usually able to siphon off some dice each phase for the horn. The ring does the same thing if I have good target. If not, people just let that one go but it is still useful. Like yesterday, the ring put a wound on a hydra (amoung soaking up dispell dice). 20 points well spent. My point is I would never beef those boys up to level 2 withou both bound items in hand. The staff is 50, so the most scrolls I could have with it is 2. The two magic item loadouts (relevant to this) I was considering were:

Lord-- Horn of Urgok 40 points
Orc Shamen-- Scroll 25, Nibbla's Itty Ring 20 points
Gobo Shaman-- Staff 50
OR
Lord-- Horn 40
Orc-- Powerstone, Ring
Gobo-- 2x scrolls

Of those or some alternative which do you think is best?

I definatly consiered making them lvl 1s and cutting both bound items but I don't think the upside is big enough. I have already filled up all my special and rare slots and I don't know what I would do with the 130 points (2x lvl 2s=70 points an both bound items=60 points, I would cut them all).

I would have to put the points in core. I have no more arrer boy models so that out. Maybe beef up the boys units and add another unit of the core fast cav? I like having a threat in the magic phase and I don't know where I could put those 130 points to do more damage and disrupt my opponents plan more than with the Shamans. If you or anyone has a good idea for those points lemme know.
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Martin

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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:04 pm

Spider riders.

Given the amount of drops you have, one of the biggest problems was bottlenecks because of terrain.
You could advance them along your lines where other units can't get, or just sit in a forest and marchblock. It'll negate most advantages your opponent can get from terrain.
Poison attacks too.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:43 pm

Originally, I ditched the spiders because the wolves extra speed pretty much just let them move around the offending terrain. But at the time I didn't realize how tightly packed I was going to be during deployment, so that is some sound advice. Even if I don't clear up some points for them, I may just switch some wolf riders for spider riders.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:50 pm

I would take your second choice of hero's people will not be able to stop all of your spells and if you happen to get the spell that makes all your 6's count as 1's off irreistably then the person your casting that on is screwed.

The bound items give you a huge advantage at this as well, because people hate them, they always save dice for them. Orc and Goblin Magic is some of the best in the game if used right go with the magic stuff take your second choice of hero's

Also spider riders beat wolves any day. Poison attacks so good, I took 2 units of 5 goblin spider riders into a giant one tournmanet and killed him thanks to the poison attacks, plus you give those guys bows and they are a big threat.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:09 pm

Great advice, thanks for the replies all.

So Josh, you seemed to be talking primarily about the offensive part of my magic. The only difference offensivly in the second list is the inclusion of the powerstone, do you think it will make that big of a differenece? Hmmm...

Since the advice has been so good here's another question. As I am running it right now, I've got 2x 5 wolfriders, musician, standard (152 for both) and 1x 6 wolfriders with full command (114). Is it useless to have the unit of 6 with the full command, should I trim at least the command back on that unit? I wanted them to be more of a threat for flank charges and to duel other fast cav than the 5 man unit, which has worked a little bit.

Another question. So right now I'm packin an 11 man unit of arrer boys. Their job is to shoot a little bit, maybe pick a wound off of a large target or some fast cav, but mostly to privide some muscle to defend artillery and flanks (since they have choppas). Also, they can work in tandem with big boy blocks by making flank charges and such. And yet I can't help but wonder if I should turn them into yet another unit of fast cav. What do ya'll think?
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:30 am

I would make them be night goblins or goblin archers, you can take so many more goblins so you get a ton more shots, and if you use night goblins you can take fantaics, I mean 30 night gobbos is only 90 points with bows!!!

Also yeah you don't need full command that is a waste of points maybe keep the muscians but that is it, and if they don't have bows you need to give them bows as well.

Plus you changed more then that

Lord-- Horn 40
Orc-- Powerstone, Ring
Gobo-- 2x scrolls

You dropped the staff and took scrolls much better and with the powerstone your set, but my theory is always use gobin shamans cause their spells are better and you have better chances of getting the 6's are 1's deal
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:40 am

I also meant to add that even though the orc is tougher its not really going to make that much of a diff in a combat if they want to kill your caster they will that is why I go with the Goblin shaman.

And also I never use my fast cave for flanking unless they are super weak units because with wolves or spiders they both die fast and rack up combat for the other person, but with the poison attacks and bows on the spiders I feel its much better for taking out war machines especally pesky dwarf crews that have to be killed or will stay all game!!!

But those are just my thoughts if you could type up your whole list I would really like to see it.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:53 am

I'd love some advice on my whole list, I'm typing an email tonight to a buddy with my list and the thought behind everything so I'll post that tonight.

I had sort of been avoiding night goblins because I don't so much know how to build a unit. The tourny allows a max of 6 fanatics so if I was going to include night goblins they would probably look like this:

2x 25 Night goblins, musician, standard, 3x fanatics, netters 394 points
So now I gotta find the points... Hmmm...
I like the netters because I can use them to flank charge and really screw whatever I hit, or I can charge, I dunno, a hydra and either win by 1 or lose by a few and use the general and bsb nearby to tie that sucker up.

So, finding the points.
Cut the arrer boys, thats 71. Downgrade the big unit of fast cav to a little unit, thats another 38. Cut one of three units of boys thats 174.

This is tough... What do you think of just one unit of night goblins? Is that not enough to do anything, are the fanatics just sort of useless becasue they can be managed?
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:00 pm

I think night goblins screw up everyone they are always scared of fanatics and netters but if you wanted to keep your army the way it was

You could just take out the arrer boys cut the command down

And then just take a couple units of 20 night goblin archers to claim table corners and mess people up because thats only 60 points a unit and if your feeling like you have extra points maybe give them each a couple of fantaics.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:10 am

I've been playing orcs for a while and this is my opinion on the army, take it for what you will.

Orc magic is next to useless. Most of the spells are overpriced or situational. Spells like "Mork'll fix it" are awesome but you can't count on getting it. WAAAGH! is stupid since it means you can't fire your war machines for 2 turns...The real problem is if a unit squabbles (1/6 chance for each of your shamans) your caster can't do anything. With only one active wizard there's no chance the other will be able to force anything through a standard magic defense. Leaving them outside of units means they will be quickly picked off. The miscast table is also so outrageous you might as well just throw your model against the wall when you roll snake eyes on a cast. Lord shaman is horrible since he'll just end up blowing his own head off and the spells just aren't worth it.

Orc and goblin archers are pointless since 1/6 of the time they can't shoot at all and 1/6 of time they have to move meaning they will be -1 to their roll and possibly off of higher ground so only the first rank can fire until you spend a turn moving them back.

I agree with people who have said spider riders are the way to go regarding fast cav. Two small units of 5 are great since they ignore terrain and are somewhat nasty on the charge with poison attacks.

Personally I think the way to go is to spam bolt throwers, get a giant, load up a Black Orc lord to the teeth and stick him in a unit of big unz, a BSB hero in black orcs and give them the +D6" charge banner. Use shamans entirely for magic defense (staff of sneaky stealing and 2 scrolls) along with the Spirit Totem. Bring some cheap Night Goblin units with nets and fanatics and you have a pretty solid force. Basically you want to minimize as much animosity as you can on important stuff and you'll have two units that automatically move when you call your WAAAGH!! (general's unit of big unz and the hero in the black orcs). You can throw some chariots in there if you can but I've found that they aren't as amazing on the table as they look on paper. Being able to fire 6 bolt thrower shots a turn is pretty scary even when the crew is BS 3 since most of the time they'll be hitting on 4+ and one lucky turn could really mess with someone's day.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:21 am

That was a well thought out post with solid advice and I thank you for it! It's lke this: the tournament I am playing in has certain pro and cons for the orcs and goblins
Pro-- I get 2600 points to other bums 2250, max 9 power dice used in magic phase
Con-- Max 6 fanatics, one giant, two bolt throwers
The above is the short version, anyway

The reason I want to play with this army is that the restrictions make the army a little more viable, so why not try it out?

First off, I took max bolt throwers (4) in a heartbeat!

As for magic, you are right about it being a pain in the ass to use. Right now I've got two units of orc boys with shields. I have a black orc BSB with the spirit totem in one and a black orc general in the other. I like putting the shamans in these units because they can't squabble. I have two goblin lvl 2s, one with the itty ring and my general has the horn of urgok. Both goblins have some magic mushrooms to boot! Despite the shortcomings of greenskin magic, these two guys have been kicking ass for me. It sounds unlikely, but with the magic restrictions on every army people tend not to have enough magic defense to stop all my %$@@, especially later in the game if I can snuff out a caster and keep mine safe. Goblin spells 2-6 are all so useful and I've had a hell of a time using their magic.

The real thought behind this list, and the reason I think I have been able to win some games with it, is that with 2600 points I can threaten my opponent in many different ways. I have so many points and there is so much stuff I don't have to worry as much about from my opponent (multiple rare monsters, max casting) that I don't need to build a traditional army build.

I guess I'll know if it works or not tomorrow!
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:27 am

That's cool. It's all about having fun with your army so if it's working for you great!

Sucks about the bolt thrower restriction though Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Orc Q and A   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:01 pm

Sorry, I get four bolt throwers, not 2. Max 5 warmachines so, since I capped out my specials, I threw in a doom diver too.
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