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 Tyranid special rule debate

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CaUTIoN

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PostSubject: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:50 pm

ok all so i'll give a quick summary of the discussion and link the thread we've be talking about it, so you can read all the various argument for and against it.

hive commamder allows one troop unit to outflank

tyranid prime is an independant character so can begin the game attached to a unit...(in this case a troop choice)

can the prime outflank with the unit since the unit is being granted the abality from the hivetyrant through the hive commander special rule ( not there are 3 guys in question 1-the tyrant 2 the tyrand prime 3 a troop choice.

please do not answer this untill you read through the other discussion thread linked so we dont have duplicate arguments either way...

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=23260

MAIN QUESTION: after reading through the discussion for the topic how will inner circle handle this situation?
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:09 pm

Is, "play a game with real rules that are well written and consistently thought out" a legitimate answer?

Otherwise I'd say go for it, just like the WolfGuard can outflack or come from behind when attached to scouts.
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CaUTIoN

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:27 pm

you lost me with the real rules comment. and far as i know from club member that play nids, i dont think either of us plan to use the prime this way just wanna make sure we know how the club is going to handle it BEFORE the issuse arrises.
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TimW

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:58 pm

Independent characters do not gain abilities from units they join. It's in the BRB under universal special rules. So no, prime cannot be attached to an outflanking troops squad unless he has scout or infiltrate. This is like attaching a space marine commander in power armor to an assault squad and them claiming he can deepstrike in with them even though he does not have a jump-pack.

Wolf Guard are completely different situation because they are not independent characters. They are more like unit upgrades rather than ICs. That's why you can attach a wolf guard in power armor to a unit of wolf scouts and still use all of their abilities (outflank, move through cover infiltrate)

Hope that clears it up for you. When in doubt, read through universal special rules in the BRB (I know outflanking isn't a USR but just read through it first.)
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:20 pm

Ah, fair enough point re: Wolfguard.

I was just rubbing salt in the wound of the fact that GW can't write rules to save their lives.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:51 pm

that exact example was used in the list...he IC isnt gaining the outflank from the troop he joins. the outflank is granted from another unit all together. and the troop swuad in question is NOT useing scout OR infiltrate.
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Tim



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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:48 pm

I read part of the 1st page until I saw that there are 8 pages and well...stopped there. That won't stop me from voicing an opinion on the matter though!

I'm going to have to go with no for the same reason that Ghazghkull cannot be sneaky with Snikrot and come in from your backside.

If the rule specifies "Troop" then I'm going to use that as a prohibitive measure to keep Tyranid Primes from joining beforehand. Tyrant gives a unit of Tyranid Warriors the ability to Outflank. Tyranid Prime now joins the unit of warriors, but being an IC does not gain the ability Outflank. Therefore, the collective unit would be unable to Outflank.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:07 pm

I'm with Tim. mostly because I'm also a Tim.

But seriously, the logic behind this is flawed. The Hive Tyrant grants outflank to one troops unit not to a troops unit and any HQs that are attached. HQs are still HQs even when inside a troops unit.
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CaUTIoN

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:46 pm

though i disagree in how it works, it seems the general consenus with the club is that he cannot outflank so i geuss that's the offical answer if / when it comes up? (it wont come up friday tim. heh my prime is starting on the board ;P )
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:53 pm

It's quite clear IMHO, per 5th edition rulebook. The only way around it is a exception in a codex. (Codex before rulebook)....

As mentioned above:
Wolves have a clear exception (however if they do it, it changes "how" they can outflank)
Orks... It's clear how it's been used, however some tourneys have ruled against it as it is not clearly spelled out that additional independent get it..
'Nids... Pretty clearly DOES NOT give outflank to anything but troops... If there is a troop squad upgrade that attaches to a unit, maybe, but what your proposing seems like a blatant attempt to cheesedick (not saying it’s you as it’s mentioned it’s discussion on other forums)

Inner circle seems to rule (IMHO) on RAI (Rules as intended) vs RAW (rules as written) so I would assume outflank a troop and that’s it.

Most of the questions on this forums are cheesy power gamer questions (which is ok) and I would be cautious using anything they spout as fact...
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:56 pm

CaUTIoN wrote:
though i disagree in how it works, it seems the general consenus with the club is that he cannot outflank so i geuss that's the offical answer if / when it comes up? (it wont come up friday tim. heh my prime is starting on the board ;P )

In one of the 40k FAQ's the question of HQ's outflanking is covered... it's very clear what special rules transfer to a squad (and from a squad) and what don't. I would love to join a CSM Termy lord with a daemon weapon to a chosen squad when outflanking, but it cannot be done.
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CaUTIoN

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:02 pm

thats where the conflict is comming from, we've got a good answer for how inner circle will handle it, but to explain the issuse.

it falls into what you classified as maybe. since it's not the squad per se' doing the outflanking, it's a special rule being granted the squad by another unit entirely.....honestly i want to see what the FAQ says on it, if for no other reason then there have been SO many great arguments both for and against how the rule works.

NOTE: i can see where both sides come from in the argument, and would personally tend to agree that he can't but for the sake of getting good clarity am playing devil's advocate...well i was dureing the discussion lol, but it got annoying after like 6 pages of just that topic so yea.)
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranid special rule debate   Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:03 pm

continueing a discussion from tonight, looking at the FAQ and playing devil's advocate.

Q. If an independent Character is joined to a
unit that is outflanking, when can he leave the
unit?
A. If an independent character is arriving from
reserve together with a unit, whether it is
outflanking or not, he cannot leave the unit
during the turn it arrives. He can, of course, leave
it as normal from the following turn

seems kinda vague to me, and also on the doom of malan'tai......damn.../cry

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

woulda have been nice against even mech but meh of well.
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