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 Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday

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Gamesmith



Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-11-23

PostSubject: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:12 am

Hi,

Regarding Jaws of the World Wolf Space Wolves psychic power. In it's rules, it states the following:

Quote :
As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a
straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest
and ending 24· away.

Since it was stated that it is a psychic shooting attack, am I allowed a cover, armor, and or invulnerable saves? How will this be ruled at the tourney this weekend? Thanks.

Marc
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Saint Omerville



Posts : 186
Join date : 2009-08-13

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:55 am

Avatar is the TO, so he can overrule me, but in general the following applies.
Since the model is removed from play, no wounds are taken, hence no saves apply.

-Mike
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scooter



Posts : 2088
Join date : 2009-08-12
Age : 34
Location : Glen burnie

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:15 am

romoved from play = no saves allowed so no cove armor,or invulm

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Nicholas A Walters AKA Scooter
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Gamesmith



Posts : 88
Join date : 2009-11-23

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:33 pm

I thought the same but I wanted the clarification from TO. Thank you both.
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avatar8481



Posts : 733
Join date : 2009-08-13
Age : 35
Location : Games and Stuff

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:35 pm

Yes that's the way it works.

It's essentially a RAI interpretation though since GW's system isn't robust enough to account for the vagaries of language that way. (contrast to Warmachine where not only is removed from play specifically defined, but there are three explicit steps to death, and effects that can occur at each one).
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TimW



Posts : 186
Join date : 2009-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:11 am

This power is hotly debated on the internet. One thing that we should rule in advance is whether the caster needs to see his target. You have a lot of space wolf players trying to claim they don't need to see the target.

However, as a psychic shooting attack, it follows all the rules for shooting so you would need to see your target for it to work (targets being anyone hit by the line).

Also as a shooting attack you can't shoot JoWW into an assault.

Is this how you guys would rule it?
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scooter



Posts : 2088
Join date : 2009-08-12
Age : 34
Location : Glen burnie

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:25 am

Agree to the second part.

As for the first part I would imagine you would need to see the first target of your attack. However if the line you draw happens to hit someone or something you can't see. Well that’s call collateral damage and it happens.

I would say that you cannot target something you cannot see thou what do you all think 1 day till the tournament we need to get this down?

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Lincoln



Posts : 793
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Location : Columbia, MD

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:37 pm

I think since it's a shooting a attack you should get cover just like any other shooting attack. if you miss cover save then off the table you go....

also if it hits combat, the hits should be randomized - possibly hurting both players units.
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Saint Omerville



Posts : 186
Join date : 2009-08-13

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:03 pm

Unfortunately, this shooting attack has no target and causes no wounds.
The implication of no target is that no LOS applies.
Since no saves are caused, no saves apply.
This is a truly nasty power.

-Mike
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Lincoln



Posts : 793
Join date : 2009-08-12
Location : Columbia, MD

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:12 pm

doesn't make sense. If you are removing it from play it is obviously destroyed. if it is destroyed then it's wounds are gone. No wordsmithing... too bad GW sucks at making rules easy to understand. When in doubt do what seems reasonable - if a model is "removed" from the table it must be dead, therefore it's wounds are ALL gone. When all saves are denied it usually says "no saves of any kind" - it does not say this about the attack. Also a cover save means that interfering terrain must have taken the hit instead of your model. So this great big 24 inch nasty line must have hit the roof.... good thing my model was in cover or he'd have lost all his wounds, would be dead and would be removed from play.

if I play SW you will get a cover save against this attack - in my opinion doing otherwise would just be cheesy and if you wanna play cheesy you should be playing daemons.

Laughing
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TimW



Posts : 186
Join date : 2009-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:14 pm

This debate could go on forever. GW needs to FAQ it and I personally would ban JoWW until they do but anyway here's my point of view on this power.

1)JoWW does have a target(s) and its those that are affected by the line. I don't see how this power doesn't have a target. It's an attack. Attacks have targets. It certainly feels like your models are getting targetted when you are at the receiving end of this power.

2)The rules for psychic shooting attacks still apply. The JoWW entry does not say anything about this power ignoring any of the normal rules for psychic shooting attacks. Nowhere in the rules for JoWW and psychic shooting attacks does it say that LOS is ignored. The thing is, we can show in the rules exactly where it states you need LOS (in the rules for psychic shooting attacks, pg 50 ) whereas proponents of the no-LOS-needed-camp cannot show in writing where it states this power ignores LOS. (I know what you are going to say but ignoring terrain does necessarily mean ignoring LOS)

3) I agree with you that since no wounds are caused, you can't make any kind of saves. Cover, invuln or armor.

Lincoln, you are too kind. I hope I meet players like you at every game!
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PostSubject: Re: Rules Question regarding Tourney Saturday   Today at 2:08 pm

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