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 what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.

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aroy



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PostSubject: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:40 am

so in the future what point values would everyone like to see in fun tournaments?
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krazyAzn



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:49 am

2500 IMO... i think that 2k isnt enought for it to be competitive enough. If you wanna see who's the best. Why not let them take the nastiest list and then see who's the best general. And plus anything under 2k Ogres get boned.
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:21 am

I say 2000 or 3000. This buts a bind on some of the top lists out there. 2k allows usually for only one lord slot as you only have 500 and getting another in there is tough, at least the way you would like it.

8th edition has a lot of luck and randomness put into it, and I think everyone is comfortable at 2500 because they can get what they want and arent scrapping to put things in the list.

Just my thoughts.
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:57 am

For a fun tournament, anything is cool. Something like a 6 game 500pt thing would be funny.
For a GT or something more serious, around 2500 feels right in 8th.
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GZealot



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:05 pm

I like the 500pt game thing that sounds like a good way to get people that are out of the loop for thing back into it. question is can every army be played at 500pts now?
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krazyAzn



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:18 pm

honestly no... look at ogres that gonna be a heroes and 8 bulls maybe...
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:45 pm

500 points of ogres..
I think it'd stand up to most other armies pretty well.

Firebelly L1 Potion of speed. 125
5 Ogres, Musician, Standard, lookout 175
3 Leadbelchers 129
10 Gnoblars, Trappers 50
Sabretusk. 21
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Here is a good 500 point Ogre list.
500 Pts - Ogre Kingdoms Roster

Mournfang Cavalry (3#, 210 pts)
3 Ogre Mournfang Cavalry, 210 pts (Hand Weapon; Ironfist; Heavy Armour; Causes Fear; Impact Hits; Stomp)
3 Mournfang (Causes Fear; Stomp)

Firebelly (1#, 125 pts)
1 Firebelly, 125 pts (Blessing of the Volcano God; Fire Breath; General; Ogre Charge; Hand Weapon; Causes Fear; Flaming Attacks; Stomp)
1 Potion of Speed

Gnoblars (10#, 50 pts)
10 Gnoblar, 50 pts (Beneath Contempt; Gnoblar Trappers; Hand Weapon; Throwing Weapons)

Ogres (3#, 93 pts)
3 Ogres, 93 pts (Ogre Charge; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Causes Fear; Extra Attack; Stomp)

Sabertusks (1#, 21 pts)
1 Sabretusks, 21 pts (Running With the Pack; Their Master's Voice; Causes Fear)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Army Subtype: Ogre Kingdoms Army; Special Rules: Forbid Regiments of Renown
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 0 (0 - 125)
Points of Heroes: 125 (0 - 125)
Points of Core: 143 (125 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 231 (0 - 250)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 125)

Total Roster Cost: 499

Created with Army BuilderĀ® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com
Created with Army BuilderĀ® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:59 pm

LOL martin we both used fire belly and potion of speed
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:00 pm

I think 500 point would be "fun". 2500 is more standard.
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:15 pm

Lincoln wrote:
LOL martin we both used fire belly and potion of speed

because he's nails.
nice one getting 3 MF's in tho.
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:20 pm

yeah i figured 3MF would be sooo ridiculous at 500 points. And if they try to shoot at them then the ogres and the firebelly will eat the enemy for lunch. The army has 2 hammers, 2 distraction units, a caster who can throw fireball, a ton of wounds, etc.... hell I'd play this army in a heartbeat.


Maybe krazyAzn is really crazy... lol!
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:43 pm

500pts does sound fun but what are the rules for lists of that size?
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:10 pm

I guess it'd be no special characters and no units over 25 models, no flamers. That's what I'd do anyway. Twisted Evil
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:22 pm

what i meant like 3unit minimum stuff like that for your army. like percentages stay same and all? core n heros n everything?
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:31 pm

yeah, 25% is 125 points, everything else is the same.

It's unlikely you'll see too many lords at that level of course.
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:39 pm

Yea I just came up with a skink themed army at 500 pts. No magic tho
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:49 pm

500 pts would be awesome, and of course there will be lists that are a little tougher but thats at any point level.
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:04 pm

Yea aight well maybe we can do a 500 pt one sometime then.
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:39 pm

I would maybe also limit the amount of shots that an army can have each turn. There are some armies out there that can just shoot you right off the table.
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:43 pm

agreed. i'd like to see more strategy than a 40kish gunline....
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:59 pm

Wellthere goes my plan
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JohnOSpencer



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:18 pm

Lincoln wrote:
agreed. i'd like to see more strategy than a 40kish gunline....
Coming from the guy who put 3 MF Cav in his army that is funny. Of course you don't want a gunline, it might actually work against you. Wink

I think 500 points seems like fun, but don't limit anything. If you limit shooting, then you have to limit melee options.

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GZealot



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:34 pm

Yeah, I was looking at the format and its interesting how well it works at multiple point levels and it forces you to make that decision Do i take a caster and have a more diverse set of options or do i take a fighter and be more combat oriented.
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:41 pm

JohnOSpencer wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
agreed. i'd like to see more strategy than a 40kish gunline....
Coming from the guy who put 3 MF Cav in his army that is funny. Of course you don't want a gunline, it might actually work against you. Wink

I think 500 points seems like fun, but don't limit anything. If you limit shooting, then you have to limit melee options.


Nah I was just making a point that at 500 points any army can be competitive - especially Ogres. I played in a 500 point tournament at the 2009 Gamesday. Everyone brought gunlines and my 2 Tomb King scorpions (coming from below) ate them for lunch. If you want a gunline go ahead, it just may not turn out as you'd expect. Skaven are amazing at 500 points... and that was the old book.
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:57 pm

Do we go off old rules for warbands or 8th editions percentage based system
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chinsquaz



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:12 pm

I've been running 1500 points at my last few so you can get 4 games in instead of 3. It seems to work very well and not alot of OTT combos that become unstoppable. Big GT's 2500 seems to be the standard now and i have no problem with it
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:10 pm

im trying to do something different then the usual just fun tourny at a very unusualy either high or low point value.
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:14 pm

I have played in tournaments where you took your normal army and then got to take a free giant or other monster. Different and crazy scenarios can be fun too.
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Brandon



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:01 am

I think 500 points would work best with 7th edition army orgnization honestly. it would be more fair and fun. like no lord, 0-3 heros, 2+core, 0-2 special, 0-1 rare. i think that would be pretty fun and god only knows what you would see coming. we could even bring it 1+ core. 500 points is just meant to be a fun tounrament i think that gives more flexibility to the army at that points value. and i like joes idea of a random monster. you could roll on a chart at the beginning of the tournament to see what you get
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GZealot



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:08 am

I personally would rather never seen something like a hydra in 500 points.. It doesn't have a place. 500 points is like a skirimish type force or a vanguard you aren't going to have a bunch of heros in the unit nor would you have a multiple elite forces. Its designed to make you think out side of your comfort zone. If you don't want to do that then don't play in the tourny. It mean't to be a unique break from what you normally work on. It allows tailors to people working on newer armies. Just cause you can't take all your toys doesn't mean you can't make an interesting and fun list with 500 points. But as Joe mentioned there are many different ways that you can make a tournament fun without sticking to changing the point values.
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:12 am

Well everyone will want to play their own way and that is fine. I just really hate what 8th edition has done to Warhammer. Were there "broken" things in 6th and 7th, of course. But for some reason the amount of randomness and stupidness that goes into the game is outrageous. I would love to see the % for the army selection be tweeked. Make core a minimum of 50%, and make the total for Lords and Heroes be 25% (together not seperate). I think that kind of adjustment will make it a strategic game again, and for the love of all that is holy get rid of the number 6 spells, they should never have been made or used in competitive play.

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Brandon



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:55 pm

GZealot wrote:
I personally would rather never seen something like a hydra in 500 points.. It doesn't have a place. 500 points is like a skirimish type force or a vanguard you aren't going to have a bunch of heros in the unit nor would you have a multiple elite forces. Its designed to make you think out side of your comfort zone. If you don't want to do that then don't play in the tourny. It mean't to be a unique break from what you normally work on. It allows tailors to people working on newer armies. Just cause you can't take all your toys doesn't mean you can't make an interesting and fun list with 500 points. But as Joe mentioned there are many different ways that you can make a tournament fun without sticking to changing the point values.

I wasnt even thinking the toys thing. I wasnt even thinking competive. i was just thinking fun and stupid. A hydra would be crazy but funny and stupid. i mean as warriors player i couldnt take a stupid amount of characters in either force organzation because its just to many points. a tounrament like that is just meant to be fun so why not make it crazy. but i am with joe. i do believe that core should absoultely be 50% and the 6 spells are game changing as scooter likes to put it.
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:08 pm

I'd vote for 8th percentages, it sidesteps most all of these issues.
Hydra's out by 50 points...
unlikely you'll see even a L2 caster, so most likely if they get a 6 spell it's because they rolled it, even then you still have to cast it at only +1.

At 500 points, most armies with magic are taking one spell and if they want to actually cast it, most times will be a roll-off on 6 dice. Given the size of the units, a jacked up fireball is going to be just as devastating as pit or dwellers.
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Brandon



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:15 pm

I am sorry guys... just wanted to make it crazy and funny lol
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:47 pm

@Martin - my complaints about 8th were primarly directed at larger point games. At 500 points the meta changes drastically and you are correct the chance of big magic in 500 pts is little to none
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chinsquaz



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:05 pm

we also play alot of IFL up here. 800 points 0-1 characters 0-1 war machines 0-1 flyers. min unit sizes are halved. we also have adapted the skirmish rules some to play in 8th. they seem to work very well. the old generals compendium has alot of cool ideas
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Btw joe for a lot of tournys they are weakeningg the 6 spells makingg them give look out sirs or cause onlly one wound bc everyone agrees they are stupid
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:42 pm

Well that's good they are doing that for 6 spells but it only takes care of the direct damage ones. Mind razor is really the one that bothers me the most. Even with the errata it is still completely not needed in the game
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:47 pm

I agree because I think magic is the most game changing tthing in8th and doesn't leave much room to focus on other things. With armys
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JohnOSpencer



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:23 pm

@Joe Neet: The problem is that the game you want to play is not the game they want to make. You want a good, balanced, competitive game and GW just wants a fast, fun game where lots of models die. I've even heard that a GW studio member said "you can either play with citadel models or competitively". That gives me the impression that we can expect this for some time to come.

I just don't worry about it, I am way beyond that now. I just put down my models and try to have a good time, even when my dice f me.
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:08 pm

this is true very true
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:09 pm

John believe me I am all to aware of that. That was my experience with play testing 8th, but it's not even about being competitive, most games have the chance of turning into watching Mike Tyson boxing a 2 year old, not much entertainment and just makes you angry
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:00 pm

yes like when i run a nongay magic heavy list i roll 1s, 2s for magic so i get 2 dice and just am like well fml. or run melee list and i have somthing terrible happen its awesome.
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:10 pm

Or when you play VC or TK and your army needs the magic to work and you get ass raped by mind razor and 30 corsairs
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aroy



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:27 pm

yes thats true too. But ur tomb guard could hold out against that with high ws
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:34 am

Idk, 40 attacks hitting on 4's with hatred will get through just about anything
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Brandon



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:41 am

MIndrazor was FAQ'ed? I am not seeing it on the Errata and FAQ...
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Brandon



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:48 am

With mind razor its more about losing a unit in a single round of combat and its normally a really important unit that gets wiped out. it doesnt matter what you kill, its the face that your unit wont be there anymore because they got prison raped by a stupid spell that made a strength 3 unit strength 9 or 10
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JohnOSpencer



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PostSubject: Re: what fantasy point value would you like to see in a tourny.   Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:36 am

I guess I've been luckier than you Joe, almost all of my games have been competitive. Granted, I don't play in tournaments, but I do play against some quality opponents.

My overall point is that the game doesn't need extra restrictions to play. Just play it RAW and it's fine. The IC has a (bad, IMO) habit of adding on a bunch of restrictions to every tournament in order to 'balance' it. That's just not needed. Everyone plays by the same rules and has all the same armies available to them. You don't need to make every army equal, they chose to play that army and they get to deal with it if it's not balanced.

I'll stop there before I go on a rant. Wink
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