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 steadfast specifics

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Blackfoot



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Join date : 2010-12-09
Location : Baltimore

PostSubject: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:57 pm

If a separate models effect gives a second or more unit the steadfast rule do the initial requirements for a five wide front apply?
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GZealot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:05 pm

O.o what are you trying to say here?
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Lincoln



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:29 pm

a unit can only be steadfast if it has more ranks than it's opponent and it cannot be inside a wood, or have an enemy unit with more than 2 ranks of 5 models on it's flank after combat. I am not aware of any model that gives a "steadfast" effect. If you are referring to "stubborn", then the answer is yes. the unit can be stubborn as long as that stubborn character is still alive and inside the unit.
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:50 pm

Thanks Lincoln. To be more direct the banner of the gods in the WoC book gives carrying model terror and stubborn rule in a 6 inch radius. I'm meaning to get extra fancy with reforms and combat resolution bonuses. Like say turning a normally five man front into a 2 man front baiting a charge or preemptive to mine while still holding the stubborn which in directly gives steadfast (maybe miss read the rule book).... To minimise casualties and essentially cheese ball the plus 3 res bonus and create a tar pit or anvil esque unit on the fly.
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GZealot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:15 pm

Having the rule stubborn and getting the rule stubborn due to steadfast are two different things. Since you are getting the rule Stubborn from the banner you would use the rules for stubborn and ignore steadfast cause you don't need steadfast since you are already stubborn!
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:39 pm

Much appreciated Mr. Zealot but perhaps my intentions arent clear enough... Lincoln, Martin, Sir Scooter please help clarify my nonsense.
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waffle



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:50 pm

Quote :
Having the rule stubborn and getting the rule stubborn due to steadfast are two different things. Since you are getting the rule Stubborn from the banner you would use the rules for stubborn and ignore steadfast cause you don't need steadfast since you are already stubborn
!


Actually, Stubborn units have the steadfast rule by default but Steadfast units are not stubborn. The simple short answer is, you are better having the Stubborn rule as opposed trying to being steadfast.

Long answer: In order to be steadfast you must have more ranks (not rank bonus) than the largest rank enemy unit in the same combat. In order to get ranks you must have models at least 5 wide or 3 wide for MI/ MC. Also you can't be in woods or anything that would other wise stop you from counting ranks. (Charging a building for example). If at the end of all the restrictions, if you meet all the requirements, you can test on unmodified LD for break tests under the steadfast rule.

Stubborn however lets you ignore all the 5 wide/ in trees/ losing ranks/ having more ranks bullshit and lets you use steadfast ALWAYS. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

_________________
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mikhaila



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:14 am

To minimise casualties and essentially cheese ball the plus 3 res bonus and create a tar pit or anvil esque unit on the fly.

Doing this with Chaos Warriors? I'm trying to imagine what unit could be charging you, where having 2 wide vs 5 or 10 wide is better. Warriors can cut through most anything.
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:38 am

Just to restate in a different way...

Steadfast is a rule that only serves to grant the Stubborn rule if the conditions are met.

Like if you fail a Stupidity check, you temporarily get the "me 'ead 'urts" rule.

Most times we just roll it up to just "I'm steadfast" because it's easier to say, and similar effects (like stupidity) were rolled up into a single rule in 7th.
So if the unit is given stubborn by another effect (banner), treat them like they have the stubborn rule and you're good to go with your choo-choo.

Are you trying to get the terror/stubborn effect from a banner carrying unit 6" from the back end of your conga line?
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:29 pm

Thank you for the responses fellas.

I re-read steadfast and definitely still get the unmodified awesomeness but can only only only claim combat res bonuses 5 wide or more... Cream cheese poopy butts.

But yeah Martin. Playing with that range and a fat daddy conga of marauding horsemen with a tricked out slannethi studed lord was definitely something I thought could be broken. Given the rules though... Oh bah humbug.
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Martin



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:55 pm

This is where we're confused.. Everything that can rank up has steadfast automatically, that says if you have more full ranks than your opponent (3 wide for brets & ogres), you are stubborn for break tests.

If you're getting stubborn from something else (banner).. you don't need full ranks.

Thinking about it tho... this all goes away if you win combat.
Why are you making your strategy around losing combat?
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:12 pm

I could see this tactic on a unit that you know can last a couple rounds of combat while you have a stonger "hammer unit" come in and mop up. Im curious to see your list and what is in it that would make you base your strategy around this "stubborn / steadfast" combo.
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chinsquaz



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:53 am

i think he wants to bait someone into combat with his stubborn unit and since its only 2 wide his opponant cant rip through them as fast, there by giving him time to line up a flank or rear charge with a harder hitting unit. like what dark elf players do with the stubborn unkilly pegasus riding D-bag
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JoeNeet



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:48 pm

Lol ok fair enough.
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:33 pm

Martin the idea is based on losing as gracefully as possible and keeping control of losses. If I can divert or tar pit something much more expensive I don't want to fight then I see that as a win. Especially since unless compd tourny play is now full block destruction for points. Could be wrong.... Anyway

Now imagine both flanks guarded with 1 or 2 40 count hordes preferably slanneth marauders greatweapons for around 1 k. From there I like the idea of a small knight deathstar with 2 nurgle disease priests spamming buboes at jerky mcjerks, a shadow lvl 4 miasming dispelling pit tosser and a bsb of the gods all ideally mounted going where he needs and hopefully warshrines and a few wolves
Ideally playing table quarter domination and points denial every game. My main hammer is still being considered though. Playing the table edge correctly could be really mean too.

Unfortunatey of this lists concepts I own like 24 marauders the wizards and 10 knights... So since I have around 90 warriors they will likely need a spot. Heh.... Anyways

It will be a while before I commit to picking up the models I need for this concept. But would like to get into playing a few different more generic lists of models I own to get a better sense of the games real flow.
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mikhaila



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:08 am

I'd definitely test that idea out a bit before committing. Doesn't look like your going to have too many units, so this set up is going to be extremely obvious, and fairly difficult to bait someone into charging you, if they have a miniscule chance of breaking you, and you have you're hammer unit off to the side for a charge. Some armies aren't going to want to engage you whatsoever. Empire, Dwarves, Elves, will happily sit back and shoot you while you sit there waiting to spring your trap.)

Few armies can match chaos in a stand up fight. Adding a tarpit/flank trap in the center of the board just means people are going to stand back and shoot you up, or go pick on your Marauder units one at a time, while you hammer and conga line sits there.

You're committing to keeping your knight unit near the conga line to keep it stubborn, or moving the BSB out of the unit. Outside the knight unit he's cannon fodder, literally. Put a good ward save on him, or someone will just bounce one through him.
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:23 pm

Would it really make much sense for any list to deploy and bait charges versus a gunline.....?
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mikhaila



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:23 pm

I'm not sure if trying to bait charges with a stubborn conga line makes sense period.) Maybe it's the use of the word 'bait', as in your somehow setting a trap?

I wan't necessarily talking about a gunline, they obviously stand still and shoot. But most armies are going to have sort of ranged attacks from shooting or magic. They can only benefit from you spending one turn forming a conga line, and not being in a good positing to charge in the following turn.
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Blackfoot



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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:00 pm

It's the idea of sudden versatility... but as you've mentioned it has plenty of holes to build a list entirely around it without better foresight.
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PostSubject: Re: steadfast specifics   Today at 2:06 pm

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